Christian Witches

[Melody]

Can you be a Christian and a Witch???

Dawn Thebarge 2001

This is a question I get a lot when I teach Intro to Wicca. My answer is, " Of course you can be anything you want to be!" Although I know there are many out there that disagree with me the reasons I feel this way are not really all that complicated.

I have heard the debate rage from both sides of the fence. The Christian community is on one side and the Pagan community on the other. "How can you be Christian and a witch?" "Christian Witch is an oxymoron." "There's no such thing as a Christian Witch! You can't be both." "Christian Witches are wannabe witches." "You can't be a real Christian and a Witch." "You can't be a real Witch and Christian." "If someone calls themselves a Christian Witch it is just because they can not face facts." " They just say that so people will accept them," etc. Well, I hate to burst anyone's bubble (and you are definitely entitled to your opinion), however, if you look at the true definition of Witch you will see that it is not an impossibility to be both.

Witch" comes from the Anglo-Saxon wicce which derives from an Indo-European root word meaning to bend or change. To me, and to many pagans out there, a Witch is a person who moves, changes or bends energy/ Therefore, ANYONE, who moves, bends or changes energy is a Witch. So if you are a Christian, Satanist, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, Druid, Wiccan, Shaman, or any other faith, and you move or bend energy you can consider yourself a Witch. The problem comes when we equate all Witches. This is not only wrong to do, but unfair to those who are practicing the differing forms of Witchcraft. You would never lump all Catholics, Baptists or Protestants together. They have differing beliefs but still consider themselves Christian. This is how many witches feel. They are practicing different religious doctrines but are still moving, bending and changing energy and consider themselves Witches.

So, you may ask, if they are "true" Witches, why don't they just forget about their Christian beliefs and embrace those Pagan traditions that they seem to be drawn to? Why do they continue to straddle the fence on the issue? The answer is, that while there are definitely Christian beliefs that they no longer personally believe, there also many beliefs and rituals that they find helpful in finding and communicating with their sense of the Divine.

In all honesty, my concern isn't really about the validity of calling one's self a Christian Witch, or whether anyone does or does not believe in this term. It is about the reaction of many people in the Pagan community to those that use the term. Aren't they allowed to call themselves whatever they want? No one needs your judgment because they decided to be part of a spiritual path that doesn't make sense to you. Is that not one of the reasons so many of us get aggravated at people who preach to us? They do not believe we can or should do what we want to do and that is unacceptable to us. The same can be said to those of you who say to the Christian Witches that they cannot be both.

There seems to be a belief among some Pagans that one needs to completely renounce all things remotely considered Christian in order to be a "real" Pagan. Why is this? If there are things that still work for them then why shouldn't they keep them as part of their spirituality? So long as they are causing no harm to themselves or others why does it matter to you? Most of us come to our Pagan path from a Christian one, and no matter how much we want to deny it, it is extremely difficult to rid one's self completely of all Christian beliefs, ritual and structure after having them indoctrinated in us for most of our lives. It has made us, in some way, the persons we are right in this moment. If these folks see fit to embrace that part of their lives then I say let them do so in peace and with acceptance. This is not an "Us against Them" issue. It is about accepting and being accepted for who we are and not the label that is on us.

I found this at the following address...
www.crystalforest1.homestead.com/ChristianWitch.html

[Melody]

I found this article and I just thought I would share it with you all. To me it makes sense. I find it difficult to pray to a lord and lady that I dont know....with that said 'I have always known that I am a witch if that makes sense. I am exploreing this to see where I fit at. ;D

[seleena]

I don't disagree, AururaMoon. The devine is the devine. The difference between Christianity isn't that we don't worship the devine, we just believe in the duality of the devine - that there is a male and female side to it.

The Christian devine is patriarchial and the Wiccan/Witchy devine is more dual. That being said, I agree that it is hard to turn your back on the Christian upbringing. Many church rituals come from Pagan background, anyway.

You have to feel comfortable with what you believe. I don't think anyone is wrong. We really don't know.

All we can do as humans, is to be true to ourselves and our beliefs. Wether we worship a female devine, a dual devine or a male devine, in the end it doesn't really matter. Whatever "God/ess" we worship will accept us as we are wether it is at the doors of the Summerland or the door of Heaven. I think the whole point is to believe in something beyond just being.

For me, I believe in the Lord and Lady. I don't know them, but I didn't know the Christian God either. The Lord and Lady just fits better for me. How can their not be a female devine with the amount of birth and rebirth in nature - that is how I came to accept and acknowledge that, for me, there has to be both. There can't be a one sided diety, it has to have balance. Black and White, Yin and Yang, Positive and Negative and Male and Female.

That is my belief. This is derived from my feelings, exploration and meditations on what I feel is right for me and what best suits the world I live in. Religion is very personal and that is where you should make your decision.

I believe you can walk in both worlds. Search your heart, pray and meditate and the answer will come in time.

Love and light, my friend.

[astralguardian]

Great topic Mel. I have always come to understand different aspects of "practices". I don't use the term religion anymore, probably becuase I just don't prescribe to one.

If you really look at the mechanics of prayer, faith, and rituals... they very similar. I find everything to just be methods of thinking.

At this point I am not even sure how to describe my viewpoint of what religion means. I think Branda touched on the question in another thread.

I just don't follow Religion anymore. I follow personal spiritual philosophy, of which I find certain other practices and their aspects to be usable with my own philosophies.

Mel, I think you touched quite well on how I define my beliefs and own personal practices well in an article you posted here as well.

[Melody]

Lets talk about this a little more in depth. I have these abilities and I come from a family of witches. I found the christian god when I got married. I havent always stuck to what the bible says and YES I have sinned since becoming a christian. So...where does that leave me? I know that the bible says to ask for forgiveness if you sin and Yes I have. But where do I fit in this? Why do I have these abilities to see things that others dont? Am able to sence things that others cant. When I have asked a minister before about this...He said it was because Of my family and that He explained it as demons that I was seeing. Well I have read the bible and can see why he says this. But I dont agree...totally. So I would like to figure out this and understand it a bit better...so I am seeking guidance from you all....If you have opinions I would love to hear them.

Oh and I failed to mention that I was made to feel 'mental' because I have a second site.

[Bear the Mystic (and cuddly)]

I definitely understand Mel's situation. While I come from a christian family, it is also a family where the maternal gifts of second sight were passed mother to daughter. I'm the first time known that the abilities were passed, intact and enhanced, to a male child. My mother and grandmother both knew that those gifts weren't evil. They taught me that God gave these gifts to help others and that the only way they could be considered evil would be to misuse them for ill gain or to cause others harm. However, we've always kept our "differences" to ourselves. In the deep south, you normally just don't risk it!

While I am very firm in my love of my God, I make it a point not to disrespect others. A nun at my church and I were talking about just this same thing a few years ago. She, like me, could not conceive of God not recognizing the honor given him by those who called him by different names but whose heart still sought to find and honor the divine creator.

I believe that there are times Mel's minister was right...that the things we see are not what they appear. However, if spirits were ALWAYS of that nature, then the Bible would call them all evil. Instead, our instructions are to "test the spirits to see whether they are of god"

A friend of mine used to say that spells were nothing but prayers with props

[brandra]

Hi Mel I see you dilemma, first let me say that the gifts you have are not demons they are not evil and you don't have a mental health issue because of them.
It is most likely that you inherited theses gifts from your Dad an had he survived he would probably have taught you all about them.
Can you be a Christen Witch? There must have been some the wise and cunning folk who worked their magic would at least have called themselves Christen to avoid the consequences.
The only problem I can see for you is some of the stuff in the Bible about the use of your powers you have to reconcile that but while you do remember that God did not write the Bible men did and it has been edited more times than I have had hot dinners. What you have to decide is can you use these gifts and reconcile it with whats in the Bible.
I would say that God gave you these gifts and would have intended you to use them.
My answer is I think you can be Christen and a Witch.
B

[vermindaspirit]

I have also heard of Christian Witches, in fact there are a few forums for this group of witches....Mel, wasn't Jesus a seer, and a healer?, didn't he foresee his death and mankind's future?, and he was the son of God, and so God gave him these gifts, just as he gave you yours....If you see yourself as a Christian with the tendencies of a witch whats so wrong with that, as long as you are happy.....Your minister would of course say that these gifts are demons or the devils work, its quoted in the New Testament that magic, divination and other magical works are the sign of the devil, but as the bible is written by man, i personally believe its a way to try and suppress those with these gifts....

Mel, talk with your God and carry on with the way that you interact with him and the answers that you seek will be given to you, trust your instincts and follow your heart....I am a lot closer to my Lord than i am to my Lady, always have been, and no matter how hard i try to get closer to the female aspect, i don't, its my Lord that talks to me and guides me, its only when there is a full moon that i actually become closer to my Lady.....

I like the way AG describe his perception of religion, personal spiritual philosophy, spot on!....Mel, iv struggled with my path for many years, and in the end i remember holding my hands up to the air and saying to my Lord, 'i give in, my life is now in your hands and i will follow the path that you set out for me', hence since then i have been happy and continue to be so...I follow what feels right for me, i have morals that i abide by and i treat people in the same respect that i would like to be treated...I look at creation and I'm in awe of it and i trust all that the Lord sends me, good or bad.......Do whats right for you and if that means you are a Christian, who has magical powers, then so be it, after all doesn't the bible say that we are made in Gods image, he has magical powers doesn't he?.........

[elle]

Whenever this topic comes up, it boils down to everyone's personal belief of what a Christian is. With my own upbringing in Maryland, there were lots and lots of fundy baptists about that hammered into my head that in order to be a Christian you must accept that Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin and makes up one third of the Divine Trinity. But you must also believe that the Bible, although written by man, was the divine voice of God and you must adhere to it.

Given that as a premise, I don't see how one can be a Christian witch, as the bible expressly forbids any action that invokes magic. But funnily enough, I believe that you can be a gnostic witch, but then again 99% of Christian either don't know what a gnostic is, or denounce them as being heretics of some flavour.

I know my view is not going to be flavour of the month, but I try very hard not to let my own experience of Christians colour my attitude to the whole of the faith. (Please don't throw capers, feeling most fragile today.

[Bear the Mystic (and cuddly)]

I know what you mean, Elle. One thing that's interesting though, is that what was done by the prophets (i.e. Elijah calling fire from heaven, Moses parting the red sea, etc.) are written as being God's hand through prayer. Today, you'd be called no telling what and accused of anything. The prophets received visions of current events, future events, etc from God and were heralded by their people. Today, though even the new testament lists the gifts of knowledge and prophecy as gifts of the Holy Spirit, people think those of us with the sight are evil.

Sounds to me like they place a double standard and try to use the Bible to back it up. Very selective in their used texts if you ask me.

I believe the Bible was divinely inspiried, yes. I believe that the message of the bible is without error. Do I believe that every single word has been 100% written, translated and interpreted correctly in accordance with god's will...not really. The message there is valid and I don't think God would allow that to be flawed. But men make mistakes and tend to interpret along their own biases so I think some of the finer points may be somewhat skewed.

[seleena]

To add to that, Bear, there has been some debate on the translation of witches in the bible. There is also debate on some of the translations and meaning of practicing sorcery, etc. Words, as you know, mean different things in different generations. Gay use to mean happy, f*gots were another name for cigarettes. Now both words have completely different connentations. It is the same as the bible. Not only was it translated from an old language, each generations interperted it to be what suited their own religious motive and the words that meant certain things in the old days, mean something totally different today. I also believe the bible was devinely inspired, but it is a guide not a law. The fables and stories contained within are beautiful, but what exactly do they mean? Angels appeared before Joseph, angels appeared before the wise men and the sheppards. Are these not a manisfestation of the devine and visitation from spirits. Are these not, in a sense a ritual that the churches perform every Christmas? So, to me, rituals and prayers and Wiccan and Christianity are not that far away from each other.

[lilyfae]

READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH BEFORE GETTING ANGRY OR RESPONDING, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT YOU READ IT ALL... the way I have structured this is for a reason.


Now I'm not the best person to talk to about this as I renounced christianity effectively when I was 8 years old through choice because I couldn't accept the dogma and the hypocrital approach they had to people. Plus I always resonated better with a female deity, it is only now that I am getting to know the God.
My brother who has special needs was condemned as possessed by demons by supposedly 'Good' Godfearing Christians ... the so called best and pillars of the community.

And elle is right, the Christian bible says 'Thalt shalt not suffer a witch to live' to hel (note the one l) with what the people say about the hebrew meaning poisoner, I'm studying the history of witchcraft and in that period the poisoner meant user of herbs which meant witch so there is no denying it and trying to make out the Bible isn't against witches.
The Witch of Endor only kept her life because she helped out the King of Israel, otherwise all other witches or users of the occult and diviners of the future were executed.

Then look at the 10 commandments, thalt shalt not worship any other god but me and other rubbish about false idols.... so in Moses' day the other things people worshipped were gods and now they are demons? Doesn't fit very well.

And as for the bible being divinely guided? Was it faxed from heaven or something???

Now you may be biting at the leash ready to attack me, but if youre going to want to choose the title Christian witch, you are going to have to be d**n prepared and have a d**n tough skin.

These are only a few things that could be thrown at you, someone who is more philosophical or have studied the bible will rip you to pieces.
And a lot of pagans and witches would take you to the cleaners too... Christian witches are a joke to some and a plague to others, generally seen as either idiots or cowards for always clinging on in case "oh dear the Priest was right in the end."

People will ask, how the hell can you follow a faith that was conceived in a land that has no social, economic, cultural or even geographical relevance to you and your ancestors?
In a land where the earth was not loamy soil but sand, and where women wore headscarves because they were second class citizens, and where people would die in childbirth and if they didn't usually to see the child not live beyond 5 months, where girls as young as 9 were sold to men in their 40's to be 'wives' but effectively rape victims.
This is where christianity grew out of, how can it relate to your life and the lives of your ancestors?

You will always be laughed at by some witches and you may even get hatemail and flaming if you go on another site claiming yourself to be such.

And even the presence of this sub-board will be enough to drive some pagans and witches away because they will think we've all gone to the fluffy bunny farm, 'white light' et al.


NOW,

you've heard all that, take it in, suck it up, if you can't handle that you are never going to be able to be a witch let alone a Christian one. You may as well give up now if you cannot cope with what I have just put above.

I personally do not care if you worship Herne, Isis, Shiva, Buddha, Chicomecoatl, Merlin, Jesus, Yahweh, Allah or the second star to the right and straight on 'til morning.

Its faith that counts.

And witchcraft, although yes it was born in a native polytheistic pagan setting, it cannot be owned by anyone or any faith.

And to perfect your phrase, a spell is a prayer with actions.

Yes, cunning folk and wise women had to preserve occult knowledge and practice under the yolk of Christian oppression.
And today every single Christian, bar Jehovah's Witnesses, performs magic at least once a year when they partake in simple candle magic... can you guess what it is?
Every person performs magic when they cross their fingers and toes for luck... no it does not refer to the cross of Christ despite what Priests and ministers will tell you... it refers to the believe that if you block your auric exits you keep the energy or magic within you, it cannot escape and so empowers you... and so you glow a bit more, making you luckier.

Yes you can be a Christian witch, because withcraft is for all, and it is a natural thing to want to know the future, to wish for luck,a dn want to keep your family and loved ones healthy and prosperous by some magical means... some pray, others lght candles... Catholics light candles why is that not deemed magic???

I wish you all the best if you do pursue this road, I would advise you get to know the Virgin Mary, she is Isis in disguise and a lot more magically inclined than the trinity.
Just be aware that it is the hardest and the loneliest path of witchcraft, often hated by both sides.

Hope I didn't make you too angry back there! I did have a point.

My blessings to you,
lilyfae xxxx

[seleena]

I am so glad you are back, Lily. You always have a way of making a point. I know you weren't slamming Christian Witches, you were playing Devils Advocate. You are so good at that. You do raise a lot of good points, though. (((HUGS))) LILY'S BACK!!!!!!!!!!!

[elle]

Didn't upset me at all Lily, you found a way to speak the rather harsh truth about how an awful lot of pagans and christians feel about the matter.

Christians have a really good point about demanding that their followers not use magic. Ninety nine times out of a hundred, the practioner involved has no business trying to invoke whatever it is they're invoking. In my opinion it's the journey of finding it that brings the wisdom of how to use it.

[tkite]

What Witches who were Christians before need to remember is that it was King James who put all that "anti-witchcraft" into the Christian bible.

Things have been so corrupted that it is impossible to discern what was truly written down, and what is really a fabrication of men who re-wrote the script.

That is most of the reason I abandoned Christianity, and went with Witchcraft, and that I am just so drawn to nature.